Thread: Cheap versus Expensive MIGS

I've been reading with interest the threads about which MIGs to buy and whether we should buy Chinese machines and so on. While I'm very impressed with what Grahame Collins has to say, I just want to briefly offer my view.

What I've always tried to do is to work at gradually upgrading to the very best I can buy, by buying and selling secondhand machines.

There's something about MIGs and the whole wire-feed assembly that to my way of thinking means that you should really try and buy the best quality. You can be a good welder, and have plenty of power, and run gas and so on, but if the wire feed is erratic then whole thing falls to bits. I know, for instance, that some of the industrial quality SIPs are notorious for having suspect wire feeders.

So, after years of searching around for "bargain" second-hand machines, I've finally ended up with three machines, in excellent condition, that suit me perfectly, and I'm satisfied that I can stop the search. These are:

A Fronius TIG/stick 140 amp inverter that is magic.
A Kemppi 2530, 250 amp three phase MIG (with a 6m weldsnake torch)
A Liquidarc 100 amp three phase plasma cutter.

The total price for these machines was $2,300, and they were all paid for by buying and selling second hand machines. I'm here to tell you that these machines are all they are meant to be, and the wire feeder on the Kemppi is as steady as a rock through six metres (with .8 wire), and the voltage is stepless.

So I think that, instead of buying new Chinese machines, people should think seriously about working up to the good ones like I have. Just a suggestion!

As for MIG welders, My first one was a sip POS...It was nothing but trouble from the git go.
I bit the bullet and bought a new UNIMIG 210 and it has never ever missed a beat exept for the odd liner.
I have had this machine for 10 years now and I wouldn't sell it for quids..
I would though like to get a second machine that has a pulse setting for ally..
I also run a 200amp AC/DC Tig that performs faultlessly and it is a chinese unit from Magnum welders.
I have a 140amp WIA electronic ark welder and 2 Lincoln 250amp bullet welders and a 50amp plasma cutter from Magnum welders..
All in all I am very very happy with what I have....
But replacement costs would be in the thousands................

Originally Posted by drsed

What I've always tried to do is to work at gradually upgrading to the very best I can buy, by buying and selling secondhand machines.

So I think that, instead of buying new Chinese machines, people should think seriously about working up to the good ones like I have. Just a suggestion!

Hi drsed,
Couldn't agree with you more ...
I had a burning desire to learn to use a MIG welder about 10yr ago. China hadn't really taken off with their crap copies then, but a new unit within the budget range available would be a pretty poor unit anyway.
Eventually I bought a 2nd hand 'Migatronic' unit which had a new Euro torch fitted. Unit would have been over 15yr old and probably used in a panel shop repairing car bodies.

It works really well. I think it has a copper core transformer from what l'm told. Only problem l have with it now is that the wire sometimes gets caught up in the liner. Probably a new liner would fix this up but l only use it now & then so tend to ignore it.

I would like to learn TIG welding, just a fascination rather than a requirement to have it. Can't justify the cost tho, so maybe it'll have to wait.

Next items l found to improve my capability were a cheap autodark helmet & BOC gas rather than straight CO2 in a converted fire extinguisher.
Cheers

I am not going to go on a big rant here, but I would just like to get a point accross.

a./ Not all Chinese welders are bad, Sorry but its the truth...I have 2 units purchased from Magnum Welders both came with a 2 year warranty and the giddings are made by Toshiba. Now not all Chinese welders have the luxury of brand name internals, But if you do your homework and find a supplier that also has a shop front and stands by his product you can't go wrong....CAN YOU??
If in 5 or 6 years the unfortunant happens and I have to replace the unit I would have no hesitation in buying the same unit again, And I would still be $5,000 better off than if I had bought a Kemmpi or Fronious..

b./ How many of our "brand name" welders are built in China? or the parts made in China and assembled in Australia or the US? I could name quite a few..

c./ What is the problem with Chinese product? YES I do realise that there is quite alot of CRAP that comes from China, But there is also heaps and heaps that is very very good.
My Sony plasma TV is made in China, So is my ipod my laptop my refrigerator and the kids XBOX.
I drive a Toyota Landcruiser which many of the parts come from China.

So to sum up....
We would all love to go out and purchase a $10,000 Fronius or Kemmpi, But I suspect that many of us can't justify that..
I do alot of welding and I have used quite a few different machines and there is not a big difference in weld quality at all if any and I am using a 200amp AC/DC Chinese tig, Which has more features than the equivelant Kemmpi machine and it cost me less than a quater of the price...

Well thats my take on the whole thing anyways.......We must remember that 80% of us on this forum are hobbyests and money could be better spent on the materials we want to weld...
Thanks for putting up with my little speach...
Matt

Originally Posted by matthew_g

I am not going to go on a big rant here, but I would just like to get a point accross.

a./ Not all Chinese welders are bad, Sorry but its the truth...I have 2 units purchased from Magnum Welders both came with a 2 year warranty and the giddings are made by Toshiba. Now not all Chinese welders have the luxury of brand name internals, But if you do your homework and find a supplier that also has a shop front and stands by his product you can't go wrong....CAN YOU??
If in 5 or 6 years the unfortunant happens and I have to replace the unit I would have no hesitation in buying the same unit again, And I would still be $5,000 better off than if I had bought a Kemmpi or Fronious..

b./ How many of our "brand name" welders are built in China? or the parts made in China and assembled in Australia or the US? I could name quite a few..

c./ What is the problem with Chinese product? YES I do realise that there is quite alot of CRAP that comes from China, But there is also heaps and heaps that is very very good.
My Sony plasma TV is made in China, So is my ipod my laptop my refrigerator and the kids XBOX.
I drive a Toyota Landcruiser which many of the parts come from China.

So to sum up....
We would all love to go out and purchase a $10,000 Fronius or Kemmpi, But I suspect that many of us can't justify that..
I do alot of welding and I have used quite a few different machines and there is not a big difference in weld quality at all if any and I am using a 200amp AC/DC Chinese tig, Which has more features than the equivelant Kemmpi machine and it cost me less than a quater of the price...

Well thats my take on the whole thing anyways.......We must remember that 80% of us on this forum are hobbyests and money could be better spent on the materials we want to weld...
Thanks for putting up with my little speach...
Matt

I accept your points, Matt. I'm actually not against Chinese welders and I know a few people who have had a lot of successes with Uni Migs and others. I guess my point is that there's a bit of a game to be played out there if you are intested, and that is to keep an eye out on Ebay and elsewhere for bargain welders that are of a good quality and try and work your way up.

What I don't like about cheap tools, of any brand or country of origin. is that they are more likely to let you down when you really need them. More than anything I hate that "feeling" of waiting for something to go wrong. Let me put it this way, I'd rather head into the Simpson Desert with a Toyota Landcruiser (with original parts!) than a Great Wall.

Originally Posted by drsed

I accept your points, Matt. I'm actually not against Chinese welders and I know a few people who have had a lot of successes with Uni Migs and others. I guess my point is that there's a bit of a game to be played out there if you are intested, and that is to keep an eye out on Ebay and elsewhere for bargain welders that are of a good quality and try and work your way up.

What I don't like about cheap tools, of any brand or country of origin. is that they are more likely to let you down when you really need them. More than anything I hate that "feeling" of waiting for something to go wrong. Let me put it this way, I'd rather head into the Simpson Desert with a Toyota Landcruiser (with original parts!) than a Great Wall.

Hey drsed

Couldnt agree more.... I think the point here I have been trying to get across to some people on this forum is that why buy new chinese products when you can pay the same price for a quality product that's second hand??
Yeah there are some fairly good chinese welders but there are some great secondhand units out there if you look hard enough. The old cigweld machines (US made grey/black units) are better than some of their new blue malaysian models....
No offence to people that have bought chinese but just check out whats out there before you dive in to some of "cheap and nasty" ebay specials. Remember that most of the major manufacturers are the people who invented/developed most of the processes that you weld with so chances are they know how to build a machine. The chinese have the hobby market and thats what they aim at but thats where it stops. Never heard of a chinese brand of sub arc wire/flux, hardfacing wire or specialist wire to weld bisalloy for example... Chinese machines have a place in the market and are ok for the average hobby welder but thats about it... Like anything there are good ones and bad so be careful before you buy, but for me secondhand all the way!

Hell id rather go through the simpson desert in a 1980's landcruiser than a great wall.

I disagree completely. The average punter does not have the time or patience to 'work their way up' buying and selling a string of second hand pieces of junk til they finally find one that works. Id rather buy something new that has warranty than some 'good' second hand unit. How do you even know what you are buying is good? can you test the machines? Not in most cases, and even if your could why are they being sold if they are good? Because at best they have limitiations that the owner flogging them off knows about, at worst they have limitations and faults.

Whilst it is possible to be in the right spot at the right time and snare a second hand bargain, perhaps from a bankruptcy or a school closure, all of second hand machines I saw when looking for a welder were worn outdated pieces of crap that lack a host of features I enjoy in my modern welder.

Ah each to their own i spose.....

In my experience though I can tell you there is a world of great machines that may on the outside look like a "piece of crap" but weld better that most migs on the market today.... Many of the "modern features" on these chinese tig inverters have been on brand name machines for 15+ years... And anyone saying that any chinese tig has more features than a kemppi in my opinion has never used a kemppi.... no offence but background settings on a MLS2300 you can alter just about anything, jesus you nearly need a degree just to operate the thing (and its easier than the fronius magicwave!!!)

As brendan points out though many of the chinese machines have all the features a hobby welder would need, so they definately have their place in the market. As I work in the industry, I personally would rather secondhand. No disrespect to brendan but just my personal preference.

Cheers Rappy

If you are in the industry then you have an advantage that most people dont, in that you are likely to be around people selling machines and you might hear of particular bargains. The rest of us are left to contend with whats on ebay, and when I was looking - it was all very expensive. The closest I found to something worth considering was a transformer behemoth with no pulse, no ac frequency adjustment, no torch and it was still more than my new machine. To boot, there was no warranty and I couldnt try it out as it was located in sydney.

At home I have an old 'goodwell' arc welder. The sort of aussie made machine that many people here are quick to applaud for its ruggedness and simplicity. Unfortunately, compared to welding on my chinese TIG, this welder is a piece of crap. Its heavy, hard to start, and doesnt run a nice bead. If I put it on ebay it would no doubt sell to someone thinking they had got themselves a bargain - but when used against a brand new inverter there is no comparison.

The root of this issue is the usual racist grudge that most people still hold for the chinese industry. Lets not forget that once upon a time the japanese industry was ridiculed in the exact same way that the chinese are ridiculed now, and they have been producing electronics, tools, motorbikes and cars that far exceed the rest of the world in terms of quantity, quality and reliability for many many years now.

Hey Brendan

Fair point.... Not racist in anyway and completely agree on inverter arc welders vs old clunky transformer models. I had an old beast years ago and i had to scratch the electrode up on a bit of scrap to get it hot so i could start it without it sticking...fn useless and any chinese inverter arc will beat one of those machines. Dont recommend buying secondhand arc machines at all, just get the cheap chinese one their pretty good....

As for migs though, which is the subject, technology has really not made any great advances in the last 20 odd years apart from inverter migs (and i'd still probably rather a WIA 150 tranny machine over a cigweld 175i). The machine i recommended on here the other day was a WIA 190 which is made in china so I dont have a problem with people buying them, its just the real cheap and nasty ebay things i would like people to steer clear of as those things surely are stacked 10 high at the tip. People on here seem to have great success with token and ive sold a few jasics in the past without too many problems but they still dont compare in my opinon.

Hell i still get asked for old WIA fabricators.....They still make the fabricator but the old ones crap all over the new ones??? Lol

But yes i apologise to anyone who though I would recommend you buy a 30 year old arc welder........ dont......bad.....very very bad.

Cheers

Yeah dont get me wrong, some chinese stuff is garbage, I just take offence to the blanket statements that are far too prevalent on this forum about chinese stuff in general. There are many many people out there that refuse to buy anything chinese on the ridiculous assumption that its all the same. Its not - and taking that attitude is incredibly narrow minded and to me shows a lack of understanding.

Definately agree with you though, the real cheap and nasty chinese stuff is risky...and with a MIG that involves a few moving parts, even more risky.

Hi all
A 30 year old arc welder is all right just use good rods.......
and a short lead on a 15A power point......

Tony

I wouldn't pull out the racist card too quickly Brendan. I have it in context. The Chinese are a wonderful people with a rich and ancient culture. They are as smart as hell and capable of making everything and anything to the highest of standards. It's just that here and the US and other Western countries we sought to exploit the cheap labour made available by a huge Chinese population, and to escape the relatively high cost of production in the west.

I buy some Chinese things, but if you are attracted to high quality like I am then you tend to avoid the super-mass-production Chinese copies.

Boy, there are plenty of different opinions here. Everlast Welders are Designed in the USA, made in China with Siemens German IGBTs and electronics and all this with a five year full replacement warranty, compare the prices!!
These machines are fantastic to use, they come complete with all top quality accessories and full parts and also service like no other. I humbly forward this to you as my quals are Electrical fitter/mechanic, first class welder, 1E and 9 pressure tickets, 3 years panel beating, teacher of welding with TAFE for more than 40 years. I have had several businesses including welding machine leasing and repairs. We used Kemppi tigs at one of the colleges and one of the problems we had which the new technology has overcome is that the High Frequency arc was too powerful and if you were using a foot control and allowed the HF arc to play on the surface of aluminium for any length of time the HF arc would oxidise the surface of the aluminium, even though the Argon shielding gas was flowing, making it difficult to create a weld pool. I have written a couple of papers for the students which I would be happy to forward to anyone starting to TIG weld aluminium or stainless steel. Just two pages of each procedure giving you step by step easy instructions. Don't knock the latest inverter technology, it's great.

By the way , don't you think the Chinese are going to do their very best to make the Great Wall almost indistructable and as well made as technology allows. It's not in their interest at all to make a heap of junk. If it was cheap rubbish news would travel very quickly and it would be a financial disaster for them. It's the same with Everlast, do you think we would give a 5 year full replacement warranty if we were trying to market an inferior product. No way, we are very proud of the products and we know they are equivalent to and better than most which are much more expensive. Not only do we have exceptional products but you can call me anytime and you will have the best service on earth, just ask anyone who deals with Everlast.