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View Full Version : To sell or not to sell ?



Qwerty
8th Jan 2009, 12:45 PM
G’day all


I am new to this forum, but have been lurking for a while. Seems you are all very passionate about the humble little Hercus, but I’m sorry to admit that to me it has always been “just a machine”. But having said that, it IS an amazing little machine with what it can do and has done.


Mine is green and the original paperwork calls it a “Hercus 9 inch Precision Lathe”. It has serial number AR12536, and as I worked part time for the bloke who bought it new, have complete knowledge of its history. In his small workshop, in lathe terms, it did very little work at all – certainly nothing compared to what I have done over the following years. He bought it from McPhersons (still has their sticker) around 1970 and I then bought it from him some 4 or 5 years later. All serial numbers match


It has the factory cabinet, roller bearing headstock and bearing idler shaft, original 4” 3 jaw and 6” 4 jaw chucks, + a 6” 3 jaw with no reverse jaws, 4 way tool post + original, face plate and drive plate, centre steady, thread chaser, micrometer stop, full set of collets with handwheel draw in bar, milling attachment with vice + indexing head attachment (suits collets). All original guards and covers. As well, the “Text Book of Turning” and “Hercus 9 inch swing Precision Spare Parts Manual” in pristine condition, + the original Inspection Report. A few months back I had to replace the speed change drive belt – the original only lasted a bit over 37 years !!!!!!!!!


When I first got it, I did not have any real use for it and at the time with a young family, it was a real struggle to pay for and to even justify in the first place – an understanding wife. Then over the years I have used it in part time work to produce somewhere near $80K, as well as other projects and the massive amount of toy repairs for our 5 children. It has had a busy life and is still being used at least weekly on my current project.


Now the reason for this post. It has some wear on the bed as would be expected after my 30+ years of use, but no other shortcomings. The bed could be remachined and it would then be as good as new, but like all things in life, we always wish that what we have was a little bigger. I have the opportunity to get a good second hand Hafco AL330 in very good condition (fellow club member is doing the same thing – going bigger), the AL330 is that little bit bigger and has the hardened and ground bed. I have since bought a mill drill, so do not use the milling attachment anymore and the eyesight is not what it used to be so it would be difficult anyway. I have not used or had anything to do with a Hafco lathe and it is naturally of Chinwaneese origin. I would greatly value your advice/opinion on changing to the AL330 or keeping the Hercus. Also any advice on where the bed could be machined (Brisbane) and/or what the value might be if sold


Thanks in advance

bluegum30
8th Jan 2009, 01:14 PM
post a few pics of the the shed pet ,who knows what advice and intrest there could be from brissy up.dont as a rule see a lot of these up this way.:D:D
lloyd.

franco
8th Jan 2009, 06:56 PM
If you have the space and keeping the Hercus is an option, my suggestion would be to get the AL330 and keep the Hercus, at least for the moment. I went through the same exercise ten years ago when I upgraded to the slightly larger 13x40 version of the AL330, and decided to keep my then 51 year old 9x18 flat belt driven lathe. I have never regretted it, and find I still frequently use the smaller lathe for smaller jobs in preference to the larger one. It is actually more "comfortable" to use than the bigger lathe, though, of course, it can't handle the bigger work. Like your Hercus it is showing signs of wear after 61 years, but it is usually possible to work around this, and the bigger lathe is available if needed for more precise work. I find I use them about equally, so reconditioning the Hercus could probably be deferred indefinitely. If you find after a year or so that the Hercus is not being used there is still the option to sell it then.

The AL330 type lathes, though not really of industrial standard, are good value for money.The only problem I have had with mine in ten years of fairly light use is a faulty starting capacitor, which seems to be reasonably common - other than that, no complaints at all, but I am still glad I kept the smaller lathe.

franco

Qwerty
10th Jan 2009, 10:52 PM
Lloyd
Shed pet ?
Never heard a lathe called that - will try and attach a few pics
But please note that it has 30 odd years worth of "dirt"
Never been "cleaned" as such :roll:
As well, it is about 1km from Morton Bay, so gets well and truely "over oiled"
Only remove the swarf when either the bed starts to disappear or I drop something and have to comb through the swarf slowly as I remove it in order to find said lost/dropped part.

Franco
Thanks for you reply
Keeping both is not and option - all available funds are going into current project and space is just as bigger issue. If I had the Hercus and the AL330, I woulld only use the AL330 when the Hercus couldn't handle the job - which in reality is not all that often.
After 30+ years on the same machine you get to know it pretty well. Checked the bed with a dial indicator about 6" out in front of the saddle and there is about 4 or 5 thou wear in the ususl place - a bit more on the tailstock way. As you said - just work around the "problem" But it would be nice to have it all straight again. Guess that's one of the problems of having it virtually from new, I can remember what it WAS like.

Do you know of any workshop that can remachine the bed ?
If I keep the Hercus, don't mind getting the bed done, as then it will be as good as new - literally :2tsup:

Any idea what the Hercus and all bits and pieces would be worth today ?

Chris

bitza500
10th Jan 2009, 11:34 PM
Hi Chris, were is the wear on the lathe bed as I have seen many a hercus lathe with beds that look like they have been attacked with a hammer and chisel

The old Hercus is even if worn 200% better than these ne import machines
Yes they do the job Yes they are smaller
Yes read the 9 x 20 yahoo group about these lathes
Yes these new lathes have problems
yes they do not come anywhere close to a Hercus
Yes try and buy parts if you (WILL) break something

I subscribed to the 9 x 20 lathe group and 99% of threads are for repairs or to modify to work properly parts breaking

But it all boils down to how rich and want a new toy that will not last even a 10% of the life of a Hercus

If the bed is so worn where is it worn as I have a 1941 a 1954 and a 1959 and all have wear but they still have plenty of life left in them

Can I put you on our Register or are you going from good to bad and buy a new lathe and get rid of the old Hercus

if the bed is worn (How MUCH??) will be the main factor in selling as I have got 3 and 1 cost $350 the other $420 and the other is made out of spares as the bed is to badly worn and marked to do accurate work

Good luck as if you read the Forum 75% of the owners are restoring their hercus as YES they were a PRECISION made lathe to .002-.005" cut on the full length of the bed as you have the book have a read as a restored lathe like a hercus will last another 40 years

all the best Derek

jomac6
11th Jan 2009, 12:02 AM
if you have been looking at ebay, and other auctions for the last 2 years you would by amazed at what a Hercus resells for, the early 9 inch model can go as high as $2500 if it has the quick change gear box like you have, a taper attatchment also ups the price, haveing said that if you send in photo like yours, with all the crud on it you will not get an offer over $650, The late models ie. 260C/G etc when they finished makeing them, about 1981 sold for over $10,000, because some of them had geared headstock most had quickchange gearboxs and just about all of them had hardened ground beds.
So make your bank account and the next owner happy.
clean it up, paint it, (see past threads on paint) oil it, so that it glows and take lots of nice pikkies of it.
Ebay, The Tradeing post, and maybe Greys on line are the best place to sell it, the Tradeing Post has now got a fairley good auction section in it.
Best of luck.
John H.

Qwerty
11th Jan 2009, 12:33 AM
Thanks Derek

What you are saying is KEEP the Hercus and maybe have the bed machined rather than "upgrade" to a newer Chinwaneese type machine

There is no real damage to the bed - maybe just some very light marks on the top of the vees where parted off stuff has fallen down but you have to wipe any oil off and look closely to be able to see them - basically with a cursory look there is no damege. I have always used a "cut off board" when hacksawing in the chuck, so when the severed part falls it doesn't hit the bed, you can't hit the vees when the hacksaw flys down at the end of the cut and last but most importantly, the small sharp hacksaw "chips" don't get on the bed to grind away as the saddle move back and forth

The wear is where (not sure that that is even English - ah well)
Yes, the wear is where the saddle sits with the tool post in line with the front of jaws and then decreases towards the tailstsock end - probably over about 6 inches. Dial indicator showed about .004" -.005" Tailstock slides are worn where the tailstock sits with a chuck and about 1/4" drill touching the front of the jaws and also decreases for the next 6" towards the rear. It has a bit more wear, showing about .008" Good reason for this that the majority of the work that was done was boring small holes in stainless steel rod and BSP fittings and parting off the said SS rod as well as SS tube. Literally 1000's and 1000's of them. Poor little machine has paid for itself many 100's of times over. You can see that the paint has worn off the tailstock from being pushed back and forth by hand. Happily for the Hercus (and me for that matter) this work is no longer done and now I only do project work but ironically, this now requires the accuracy the Hercus once had. (I have the original Inspection Report)

Having said that, can and still do accurate work - just have to work a bit smarter - you can see aluminium swarf in those phots - that is project I am working on and it requires components being machined with a .001" tolerance at around 75mm diameter. Luckilly, they are only short, otherwise the wear gives me a slight taper, but this can be taken out with a file. Have played around with the tailstock on longer jobs to minimise the problem. Luckilly again, the internal areas do not always require that close tollerance, so I get by. This was the reason for considering the AL330, but by what you are saying, it may NOT be any better that the old Hercus. Thought the hardened and ground bed would eliminate this problem. Many thaks for your comments

Any idea if there is a workshop around Brissy that is capable of machining the bed and any idea what cost is likely to be ??

Chris

bitza500
11th Jan 2009, 01:40 AM
Hi Chris, why not look for another lathe bed as most places that strip down the old Hercus may be left with the carcass
As for the tail;stock why not shim it up as this is quite a common repair job to do as for their age and as for getting the tolerances you require read the manual as I do not think that they even came out of the Factory with such a small tolerance that you are wanting as .003-,005 "was the factory tolerance by Memory and to get it better require a lot of good old fashioned hard work
1 Bolted to Concrete and shimmed so it is level
2. check for wear in the headstock bearings
3. replace spindles and nuts with new ones (YES they are available )
4. Strip the carraige and parts and check for other signs of wear
5 If the machine is bolted and shimmed level re check your lathe bed again
The list goes on but as 37 people on the Register and 75% are doing full restorations as there is nothing about that can match a good well maintained Hercus 9" plus they are easy to work on and Hercus use to regrind the beds but they are in SA but you have to find a place that can grind a 40" lathe bed and that would be a big machine
and as discussed before getting the bed ground is about $600 as the carraige ,headstock and Tailstock all must be matched to the new machined bed

if my Hercus had that type of wear I would be happy as after 62 years they are no spring chickens and if your job needs such fine tolerance I would shim the Tailstock to centre height and make sure the lathe is bolted to a solid base as this can be the cause of the wear as the bed may not be exactly level and can cause problems

Get the yellow pages ring around and see what you can find as the lathe last week went for $250 ? and if the bed is the only drama start using your fingers to find another bed

all the best Derek'

franco
11th Jan 2009, 02:43 AM
bitza500,

You said:

"The old Hercus is even if worn 200% better than these ne import machines
Yes they do the job Yes they are smaller
Yes read the 9 x 20 yahoo group about these lathes
Yes these new lathes have problems
yes they do not come anywhere close to a Hercus
Yes try and buy parts if you (WILL) break something

I subscribed to the 9 x 20 lathe group and 99% of threads are for repairs or to modify to work properly parts breaking

But it all boils down to how rich and want a new toy that will not last even a 10% of the life of a Hercus"

With respect, the AL330 lathe is not a 9x20, but a very much bigger and heavier machine. It has a geared headstock, swings 12" over the bed, takes 36" between centres, and weighs more than four times as much as the 9x20. I bought a slightly bigger version of the AL330 new ten years ago, not because I particularly like Chinese lathes, but because after eight years of looking I still could not find a reasonable second hand lathe in that size range locally which approached it in value for money. Other than a starter capacitor which failed shortly after I got the machine, it has been trouble free. I have not had any reason to regret buying the lathe, and would buy another one the same given the same circumstances. It is not a heavy industrial quality lathe, nor is it a machine which is easy to fall in love with. It has a couple of annoying design features, but it is capable of handling considerably bigger work than the Hercus, (one of Chris' objectives), with reasonable speed and accuracy.

Other than the occasional faulty starting capacitor on the motor I have heard very few complaints about these machines once the initial problems with loose fasteners etc. have been sorted out. (There were very few of these on the lathe I bought).

I would not like to try to influence Chris' decision either way, but am just pointing out that the AL330 is a much more capable machine than you inferred in the above statement.

Regards,

Frank.

bitza500
11th Jan 2009, 03:21 AM
Hi Frank, Please do not think that all the import machines are rubbish but Chris has a Precision lathe which had .003-.005 pass test if they could not get that tolerance or less they were sent back and redone My 1954 Hercus is also a now heavily modified to do certain jobs
Chris wants tolerances of .001" as I have yet to see a lathe get such accuracy the Hercus was built or should I say the South Bend Lathe was built in 1939 and these small 9" lathes which were bolted to it's own special concrete slab as the American Army had these machines running near zero tolerance as this was required as to build parts because of WW 2 My Mate in America has a mate who bought a ex Army lathe these machines had small differences and the guy was stuck tring to buy spares as they were special build for the Army and all paperwork is still classified

I am not bagging all these lathes, what I am saying is Chris has a Machine that for less than the price of another lathe he could have his Hercus back to it's Precision built specifcations and know the Machine is in my opinion the best lathe arond for precision work

The Imported lathes are a good Machine once the bugs were sorted out but a lot of these import machines are not as precise as the Hercus even with it such small size

I have been looking at imported lates as well but I went for a hercus as mine was built in 1954 it has hardly any wear the Mainshaft runs directly on the Headstock casting and after 54 years has no play

Chris just asked a question should I buy a import or repair the Hercus

Well I hold the Hercus Owners register and 75% of the owners are restoring their Lathes because they are a much better and precise lathe than (SOME) of the imports

I will probably end up buying a bigger lathe myself but for precision the Hercus was renown as a top class machine that was basic in design but precise in Maching and as the built over 12,000 9" lathes and were exported overseas
Do you think your lathe will still be working after 54 years ???


But Chris has now got replies and the pro's and con's of which is the better way to go
Money wise unless the lathe he is buying is very cheap the Hercus would work out a better project to restore

all the best Derek

Qwerty
11th Jan 2009, 10:31 PM
John H
Was a bit hesitant to post the pics of lathe as is - thought I might have been thrown off the forum for cruelty to small lathes or something. :rolleyes:
Decisision is to keep the Hercus and look into getting the bed remachined. :D
Would take your advice and clean and polish to within an inch of its life if I was going to sell
Thanks again

Derek and Frank
Many thanks for your advice and comments
I do not want another "toy" as such. The lathe is a means to an end - meaning that it is used in making parts for the real "toy" (homebuilt aircraft) and associated projects
The "project" that I referred to regarding the mess in the photos and the close tolerance work is an inflight adjustable propeller that we are designing/building. We are well into the developement and testing phase and I have done the machining for such components as bearing adaptor plates to allow the use of a different bearing in a housing that has been machined for a larger one as well all the components in the the blade turning mechanism. Most need very close tolerances for obvious reasons. Our role (friend and self) is to do the design and build and test the prototypes. Lucily most of these components are only short in length and as the close tolerances are mainly on the diameters I get by. Was much nicer when the lathe was new(er) but like anything, you don't know what you have until you don't have it anymore

Did come unstuck on one small part though.
It was a small thrust bearing housing and the taper bit me. :((
Fit was OK at the front where a ciclip grouve stopped the bearing from falling out, but as the bearing was pushed in the taper had caused the housing to grow and there was clearance at the back. :oo:

Love Loctite but like accurate machining better :2tsup:

Thanks again for your help and would you happen to know of any workshop(s) that might be able to do the remachining job ?

Chris

franco
12th Jan 2009, 10:15 AM
Hi Chris,

Australian machinery reconditioners seem to be a bit light on the ground - a Google search did not provide anything useful at all. However, I then remembered seeing an ad. in Australian Model Engineering magazine for machine tool reconditioning including slideway grinding. There is no website or e-mail address, but contact information given in the ad. is:

"Discuss repair options with Harry at the MTA factory,
No 2 By the Sea Road,
MONA VALE , NSW 2013
Phone 02 99794866 Fax 02 99794856"

If you want to see the whole ad. PM me with an e-mail address and I will scan it for you. I have never had any dealings with the firm, and know nothing about them beyond what is in the ad. but they are the only people I could find who mention that they have the equipment to grind vee and flat slideways, and to apply and machine Tuflite and Turcite (see comment below). If you decide to follow this up, I would be interested in your findings.

As Derek mentioned, don't forget that if you remove any appreciable amount of metal from the bed, you will also need either to reposition the rack, gearbox and leadscrew or to pack up the saddle, tailstock and headstock by the same amount to preserve correct clearances. There are plastic sheet materials such a Tuflite specially made for this purpose which can be used to renew and reposition the sliding surfaces on the saddle and tailstock.

Which homebuilt are you building? Many years ago I owned an aerobatic ultralight - not homebuilt - which was a lot of fun. Alas, Wife-to-Be could not see the logic of having a husband with a single seater aircraft and no money at all, so one of them had to go - a difficult choice. However, Wife-to-Be, now Wife, is still around over forty years later, so it was probably the right decision!

Regards,

Frank

damian
12th Jan 2009, 11:13 AM
First question: What are you going to do with the hafco that you can't do on the hercus ?

Second question: Take a test cut and tell me about it ? Is it "S" shaped ? barrelling ?

If the first answer is nothing much and the second is bugger all you have your answer. If you've got a tailstock problem fix the tailstock. If you really do have a bed problem it's fixable. Anyone with a big enough surface grinder and a clue can put it right for you.

A model A is a $1k proposition. The extras on yours add a lot to it. The milling slide alone is worth a couple of hundred to the package, and the collets probably $100. All up I'd expect $1500 - $2k as a package maybe more if sold seperately.

The asian lathes are variable. You can probably assess what your buying. If you can't don't get one. You might as well buy something nice and old and put it right rather than trying to get a newish asian thing right. I don't know what money you are talking for the hafco but a DS&G sold at low $ on grays the other week.

The big question is why are you buying it ? If you don't ahve a reason keep the little hercus. It'll do a lot of work and for the occasional larger job farm it out.

2c.

blackfrancis
12th Jan 2009, 12:09 PM
I'll offer my two cents worth.

A precision lathe should be able to turn a bar sticking 6" out of the chuck parrelel to less than a thou with no problems at all. Your lathe is worn and is no longer a precision lathe. You'd find very few 9" hercus lathes that aren't significantly worn. Fixing it will require work and money. At the end of the day the bed still won't be hardened. You can get Chinese lathes that have straight beds and most of them are hardened. Why don't you ask your friend if you can test the machine. Put a piece of decent sized bar, about 6" or 8" long, in the chuck with no tailstock, and take a very fine finishing cut with a sharp high speed steal tool which has only a small radius at its end. Measure along the bar with a micrometer and see how good it is. Do the same with the Hercus. Then you'll have a fair idea what the accuracy is like between the two machines.

Fraco's suggestion of contacting those machine tool reconditioners is a good one. You could also contact Hercus, they used to regrind beds at cheap prices and will do a good job. Note if you get them to do everything it will cost the world, regrinding the bed is not labour intensive if they still have the production machine.

My Father got an old southbend bed done there years ago and I fixed up the rest. If you pay someone to regrind the bed you then have to way up whether you're going to pay them to do the rest or do it your self. The rest is labour intensive and will probably cost a lot if you pay someone to do it. Depending on how much wear there is you may have to deapen the grooves at the top of the vee's in the saddle, ideally using a milling machine. You'll then have to hand scrape the saddle to match the bed. This will be tedious and you need to make the crosslide square with the axis such that is faces slightly concave. You'll then have to do something about the base of the tailstock. The easiest way would be to remachine the vee and flat on a mill and then shim it up to the correct height. You could hand scrape that also but you can get away with out it. You could get a new base from Hercus but that will cost the world. If the bed is reground correctly you won't have to do anything about the headstock, assuming the bearings and spindle are ok.

So way up your choices. To fix the Hercus will cost time and money and at the end of the day the bed won't be hardened. The more accurate you make the Hercus the sooner you will notice that it has lost some accuracy. The design of the Chinese lathe won't be as elegent as the Hercus, it will probably be more clumsy to use, and it won't be as well made as the Hercus was when it was new, but your Hercus is not new. It may be that the AL330 does what you want and is a good option. Your best bet would be if your friend let you spend some time on the machine. Then you'll know which way to go.

If money is no object Hercus will make the whole machine like new for you.

http://www.hercus.com.au/260-metal-lathe-refurbishment/


Cheers
Steve

Qwerty
12th Jan 2009, 09:24 PM
Hey all

I am amazed at the help and advice being given. It is greatly appreciated

Derek PM'd me with a few comments and I think he also mentioned in one of the posts that the lathe should be bolted down to a concrete floor. Well it is not exactly like that. :- It is sitting on a pallet which is on a crackerdust floor (hangar), :oo: anyway, by the sound of it, I should work out where I will keep it permanently and put down a concrete pad THEN take some serious readings.

I know the bed is worn simply from observing the changes that have occured over the years, plus with the shear volume of work that has been done, whilst oiled and maintained as it should have been on a non hardened bed it is not possible not to have wear. BTW, it has not alway been on the pallet etc - this has only ben the past 5 years or so - proir to that it was always on a concrete floor, although not bolted down and shimmed. As well, all the work was done when on the concrtet floor - I no longer do that work (thank goodness - like the money - not the boredom of the countless hours)

Frank
Will call MTA Factory tomorrow and talk with them. Note comments re shimming the rack etc down. Re the ultralight, I finished a single seat 2 stroke last year after 10 years of building and a total of about 4700 hours. It is flying now and I have started a Sonex, which is a 2 seat side by side all aluminium low wing that will have a max cruise of just over 300kph when I fit a turbo Rotax engine. :D It will have one of the IFA props we are making and hopefully will be marketed later this year :cool:

Steve and Damian
Thanks for your advise and comments - a big reason for keeping the Hercus is that it IS easy to use, or I am just used to it and probably feel more comfortable with it - and as you said, just farm out what it can't do, which is not that much nor very often.

Hmmm might even sell the milling attachment as I will never use it :)

Once again, thanks for your thoughts

Chris

blackfrancis
13th Jan 2009, 12:04 PM
Chris

I wouldn't bother bolting it to the floor. It is common for factories full of production lathes to have them all not bolted down, they regurly move them to change the production lines around. The only place I've ever seen lathes bolted down is at tech schools. They don't want kids being able to push a hercus across the floor etc. With bigger lathes this is not a problem. If you do bolt it down you'll need to level it up with a suitable level. A normal precision engineering level, such as commonly made by Starrett, is not good enough. You need the one that reads with a sensitivity of about 0.0005" to the foot. Big machines will twist under their own weight and need to be leveled even when not bolted down. The little hercus won't have this trouble. If it's not turning straight the way you have it, bolting it down aint going to help. If you just set it up roughly level and shim it up so that it doesn't rock it will be good. In the Hercus book, they say how to bolt the lathe to a bench, with two points under the headstock foot and one under the tailstock foot. Even they recomend letting the lathe take up it's own alignment.

Cheers
Steve