Argon for MIG / TIG

[Beerbotboffin]

Just thought I should let all concerned know - You can get Argon / Argon blends through Supagas in Vic/NSW/QLD.

But BEWARE! They charge for their bottle rental from the first of the month. If you get it late in the month, you still pay for the whole month, and they don't tell you this unless you ask.

Still, I got D sized bottle for $57, $9.90 a month for rental.

WAY cheaper than those C#*P disposable bottles.

Would be nice if they got realistic with rental pricing. Anyone interested in a 'bottle club' in Brisbane, to save on rental? Just a thought.

Shane

[hux]

I think a full sized bottle is only $77 from BOC and rent is $10 a month as well.

How does a bottle club work?

[Beerbotboffin]

Hi Craig,

Thanks.

The idea of the bottle club is just a thought at this stage. The idea was that maybe it was possible to get 3 or 4 blokes together and share bottle rental, as most people aren't using the thing every day anyway. I'm not sure how it would work in detail, any thoughts?

[hux]

No easy way really. Problem would be someone wanting 100% argon, someone else wanting ArgoShield Light, someone heavy etc etc. Then the grief of having to go and pick up the bottle when all you want is a 5 second job. I wear the cost of the bottle as a cost of ownership of the MIG - as my wife describes it - the hot metal glue gun.
I couldn't handle not being able to do the quick weld jobs when I want even though I am not a heavy user (1 bottle fill in 6 months).

If everyone lived close together I guess it could work.

[glock40sw]

G'day All.
I tend to agree with Craig.
It is worth the pain of rental costs just to have it on hand.

Being able to slip out to the shed and fire up the Mig just to put a 10mm bead along the handlebar basket of the grand daughter's bike is just so convienient.

I have 2 rentals. Liquid air for the Migshield for steel and BOC for the Argon for Ali.

[Beerbotboffin]

Fair enough. Just a thought.

[Metal Head]

Hi Beerbotboffin & Hux,

I was on the phone this morning to SupaGas & BOC to enquire about hiring a bottle either size D or E.

SupaGas for a size E would charge me $10 per month to hire and $70 for refilling. Where as BOC would charge $10 per month and $60.

Either way it appears us Victorians are having to subsidise you Queenslanders:(( :D.

Cheers
MH

[Hampson]

Hey guys

There is a great way you can save on cylinder rental through Supagas which you can't do with any other gas suppliers. If you return the cylinder before the end of the month, you don't pay for rental. So you can use the gas during the month and then return it before the end of the month. They only charge you for the amount of cylinders you hold at the end of the month.

Cheers.

[Vernonv]

Either way it appears us Victorians are having to subsidise you Queenslanders:(( :D.I reckon I'm subsidising the rest of you:
Air Liquide e size Blueshield 23 - $160 a year rental and $102 a refill. I'm handing my bottle back and going to CO2 (buy, not rental). If I need to do thin stuff (i.e. panel work) I might consider a months rental, or may borrow a bottle.

[Cliff Rogers]

Air Liquide are doing a recall on their older E cylinders.
They are offering a free swap between now & the end of July.

[kraits]

if its all so hard, learn to arc weld, better yet, give forge welding a go.:U

[Pete F]

As a matter of interest, how much are guys paying for E size Argon? In Sydney a bottle is costing me $114 and rental is $47 per quarter.

Pete

[WelderMick]

As a matter of interest, how much are guys paying for E size Argon? In Sydney a bottle is costing me $114 and rental is $47 per quarter.

Pete

Pete, have a look at this one http://www.woodworkforums.com/f160/e-versus-g-argon-cylinder-pricing-136797/. I realised I was paying too much. It seems that you should be able to do even better if you are in Sydney. Cheers - Mick

[Karl Robbers]

There really is a lot of effort here being put into saving a dollar.
Are rentals really so unreasonable?
Let me put it this way. If any one of us had an item worth $500, (cylinders are worth a lot more anyway), and an individual wished to hire that $500 item from us for a month. What price would we agree on?
Ok mate, give us a slab when your done. There's $40-$45.
Chuck us a six pack mate. There's $12-$15.
We pay more for mobile phone access or pay television and accept it.
The reality is that welding equipment has never been cheaper. When I bought my first mig in 1992, $2000 was where you were looking for a single phase 220A integral wire feeder machine. Now what would you pay for the same machine? As I posted earlier, gas cylinder rental is just part of the cost of Mig/Tig welding. If you don't like it or can't justify it you can either outsource your welding jobs, use a stick welder, which will do most of the handyman's work if used correctly or use gasless wire.

[Pete F]

If any one of us had an item worth $500, (cylinders are worth a lot more anyway), and an individual wished to hire that $500 item from us for a month. What price would we agree on?


How much does it cost to buy an Argon bottle then Karl?

[Vernonv]

First off, what's wrong with saving a few $'s? Those few $'s could go to materials, etc for other projects.

Second, I think your pricing is way off. You can buy E size cylinders (full of gas) for a little over $400 and that is retail price. So lets assume that the cylinder costs BOC or whoever $400 over it's 20 year life span (that includes one inspection). I was paying $160 a year rental ... it's costs them $20 a year ... that's a nice $140 p/a profit or 700% p/a profit. :oo:

Nah, they ain't gouging. :roll:

[Karl Robbers]

How much does it cost to buy an Argon bottle then Karl?
If you were to destroy/lose a "G" size cylinder, the last price I was quoted was $2500.
I agree that that is very steep, almost a fine in fact, however if we use the comparison to a scuba cylinder then the going rate for a new scuba cylinder around a "D" size, (naturally there are no scuba cylinders "G" size equivalent), is according to ebay $350+$51 postage. So my $500 figure is not unrealistic, in fact it would be on the low side.
If any of us were to supply goods worth this amount on a hire basis would we not expect to make some sort of profit? Also to be considered is the fact that our $500 cylinder, with a 20 year lifespan will probably cost $1000 to replace at that 20 year mark, not to mention the fact that during this 20 years the cylinder will have been tested numerous times and various upgrades applied, (there have been several changes to valves etc in the last 20 years).
To use the figures from VernonV using a capital figure of $400 including gas, (value of $120 for gas), taken over 20 years = $14 per year cylinder cost IF we discount testing costs and refurbishment costs. This however increases to $28 per year assuming that replacement will be double at end of life. $160 rental cost minus $28 cyinder cost = $132. Anyone who runs a business would have to admit that that is not an unreasonable return to ask, BOC and Air Liquide are not charities, they are businesses who must make a profit if they are to continue, (don't forget that both these companies indulkge in research and development work that must be funded some how). If you borrowed that amount of money from a bank it would cost you more than that and there is no end of life replacement cost to a bank.
At the end of the day, we are talking less than 50 cents per day.
Nothing wrong with saving a dollar, believe me, I do. But I am struggling to see the great injustice here.
We have never had it so good as far as price and availability of equipment, (a double edged sword).
As a matter of interest, how many people run the excessive flow rates listed in many manuals? To save a dollar cut back your gas flows to 8lpm for Argoshield, if you really must use it or 10lpm for CO2, (this is for steel welding), you will save more in gas costs that the small amount of rent, comparitively speaking.
If we really want to kick up about something then the price of steel would be a far more worthy cause, (why is it that Australian steel in billet form, sent to malaysia, reheated and rolled there, shipped back to Australia retails for less than half the price of steel rolled here?).
I will continue to pay my four cylinder rentals, knowing that they save/earn me far in excess of the rental amount. If I performed the equivalent amount of work with a stick welder it would cost me much more.
I am certainly not trying to antagonise anyone, I just don't see the big drama in the larger scheme of things.

[Pete F]

(don't forget that both these companies indulkge in research and development work that must be funded some how)

Karl, perhaps you could give us an example of some "research and development work" that BOC has put into their $2500 argon bottles that sell for under $250 (FULL) overseas?

[LordBug]

There really is a lot of effort here being put into saving a dollar.
Are rentals really so unreasonable?
Let me put it this way. If any one of us had an item worth $500, (cylinders are worth a lot more anyway), and an individual wished to hire that $500 item from us for a month. What price would we agree on?
Ok mate, give us a slab when your done. There's $40-$45.
Chuck us a six pack mate. There's $12-$15.
We pay more for mobile phone access or pay television and accept it.
The reality is that welding equipment has never been cheaper. When I bought my first mig in 1992, $2000 was where you were looking for a single phase 220A integral wire feeder machine. Now what would you pay for the same machine? As I posted earlier, gas cylinder rental is just part of the cost of Mig/Tig welding. If you don't like it or can't justify it you can either outsource your welding jobs, use a stick welder, which will do most of the handyman's work if used correctly or use gasless wire.

That's exactly the way I justify it Karl.
For example, I was previously paying $100/month for internet & phone access. Found a cheaper plan which was better for $80/month, so right there is my argon rental.
$15 can disappear with two drinks at the pub with mates, it can go on two visits to a fast food outlet, it's a single music CD, it's not even a ticket to the movies. A lot more than that goes into fuel for the car, and there are plenty of other short lived things which use up that amount of money and more.

For that measly sum, I've got access to the abilities to a neater weld than flux cored wire (Which I assume the increased cost counterbalances any potential savings, and I'm left with the difficulty of working with it). For $15 a month, I've got access to something which allows me to gain greater joy from the occasions when I get to weld, which to me is well and truly worth it.

I am tempted to try playing with CO2, to see if the increased difficulty of it inversely benefits any future welding with argon mixtures, otherwise I am quite happy to have that bottle of argon which sometimes doesn't get opened for a month or two.

I don't mean to sound as though I'm ragging out people who are going down the CO2 path, I believe that if you see the value in saving that money, then it's well worthwhile for you to do so. My own view is simply that the saving isn't large enough to take me, when I compare the cost against many other things in daily life.


All that matters at the end of the day is that the welds hold :)

[Karl Robbers]

Karl, perhaps you could give us an example of some "research and development work" that BOC has put into their $2500 argon bottles that sell for under $250 (FULL) overseas?
Did I say that R and D went into the argon cylinder?
I actually got a price from my local supplier today for the replacement cost of a "G" size cylinder - $750. This I believe to be realistic based upon the comparison to a scuba cylinder, (one of the few high pressure cylinders that an individual can purchase).
R and D dollars go to areas such as the development of new argon mixes, electrode types and the like, along with development of welding processes for new material types, yes I do realise that many electrodes are used under licence from other manufacturers. Getting a new electrode, gas mix or filler material certified is no small feat and part of our rental no doubt contributes to this process, along with the infrastructure required to support a gas cylinder supply network.
What do you believe cylinder rental should cost?
If rental is so unreasonable, why do large engineering firms still rent large numbers of cylinders, (if anyone one could, they could afford to buy their own)?
Linde Gas used to run a system where you bought your own cylinder which was then exchanged for a full one as required. That system no longer exists, at least not here in Tasmania. That must tell us something surely?

[Vernonv]

To use the figures from VernonV using a capital figure of $400 including gas, (value of $120 for gas), taken over 20 years = $14 per year cylinder cost IF we discount testing costs and refurbishment costs. This however increases to $28 per year assuming that replacement will be double at end of life. $160 rental cost minus $28 cyinder cost = $132.You seem quite happy to include increase the costs over the life of the cylinder (by the supplier), but then conveniently forget that the rental will also go up to cover these costs.

I ignored the increasing costs and subsequent increase in rental as it affects both side of the equation equally, and I figured it would make the maths a little easier to understand.

I agree that they need to make a profit, but 700% pa is piracy.

[Karl Robbers]

I did neglect the increase in rental fees. Guilty as charged.
I don't want to get into a slanging match as this is, or should be a friendly forum.
I still do not see that we are being ripped off that badly and truly believe that if any or us were to hire items of similar value, we would seek similar rental fees.
If someone finds a cheaper way that works for them, I wish them all the best.
As a matter of interest, in an earlier post I queried the cost of food grade CO2 as opposed to welding grade. Yesterday I enquired at my local Air Liquide dealer and found out that they both come from the same bulk supply and are the same cost, at least here in Tassie. So perhaps for some, the beergas bottle may be an option.

[JNorton]

Simple fact of the matter is, Australian business by and large, gouges the Aus public horrifically. The 700% markup someone mentioned above comes as no big surprise.

That'll be a controversial statement, I know, but it is the truth.

The 'online revolution' is changing things slowly, though, and I hope it won't be long before that broom of change sweeps over all aspects of Australian business practice and Aussies start getting fair prices overall.

[Matt McLeod]

I'm with you Karl. I've got a Supagas account for Argoshield for the MIG, Argon for the TIG, and oxy/acet because it's nice to be able to heat and cut stuff.

I got my first fill free when I set up the account. So for 60 clams a month I can have a much fun as I want whenever I want.

Like others have mentioned I have cut back on other expenses for phone, ISP, etc. The other thing I will be focussing on when I have finished my TIG certificate is some paying jobs to cover some of the costs in my shed.

Oh, and Supagas deliver bottles to your door....it's just too easy and in the scheme of things, not that expensive for the service they provide.

[Vernonv]

I still do not see that we are being ripped off that badly and truly believe that if any or us were to hire items of similar value, we would seek similar rental fees.But we are not talking about renting out a car or machinery here, it's a gas bottle. There are very low maintenance costs, low risks and a very long, stable rental period (years, rather than days or weeks).

I'm not trying to tell anyone that they shouldn't use gas "because it's a ripoff", I'm merely highlighting the facts and trying to put the "reasonableness" of the cost of rental into context. If you can afford/justify the cost of rental, or can charge out jobs to cover your costs, then that's well and good ... unfortunately not everyone can.

So I guess if you see 700% markup as being "reasonable" then we will just have to agree to disagree on what we consider reasonable.