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Rob Turbo
15th Aug 2016, 06:58 AM
Not really a gun, but it's a gun related problem!

I'm making a tennis ball launcher that uses .22 blanks, I've researched the law and as long as it can't be made to fire live ammunition with regular hand tools and without special knowledge it's fine (in UK), to make sure it can't be easily adapted I've made the chamber from hardenable steel and not drilled all the way through, then drilled holes in the side at the barrel end for the gasses to escape, when I'm finished working on it I'll harden it so it can't be drilled easily without annealing it, which should count as special knowledge, hardened steel welded into a barrel is part of the deactivating process so if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me!

Now on to my problem, to start with I made a quick and easy spring loaded pin to fire the blank, to make sure it would launch a tennis ball, rather than waste my time making something fancy when it's not going to work, once I get this ironed out I'm planning on making a bolt action for it, it turns out it does work, rather well! But it did show up another problem, the blank slides in easily and will drop out if you turn it upside down, but after it's been fired it's hard to get the empty case out, sometimes I can just about pull it out with my fingers, other times I need to lever it out with a screwdriver.

What would be causing this? Is it because the hole isn't smooth enough? I just drilled it, would reaming it fix the problem? I know I'd probably have to start over because the hole will be too big but that's not really a problem, I don't have a reamer either, so I'd have to buy one, but I'm not going to buy it unless I know that's the problem, I'm not a fan of wasting money! If I need a reamer does it have to be a chamber reamer or will a regular chucking reamer work?

Michael G
15th Aug 2016, 07:56 AM
It is likely that the pressure involved is enough to slightly expand the cartridge case out, making the fit tighter. A smoother hole may help but you might have to make up an extractor to at least start to eject the spent brass.

Michael

ian
15th Aug 2016, 11:03 AM
Not really a gun, but it's a gun related problem!

I'm making a tennis ball launcher that uses .22 blanks,
snip
Now on to my problem, to start with I made a quick and easy spring loaded pin to fire the blank, to make sure it would launch a tennis ball, rather than waste my time making something fancy when it's not going to work, once I get this ironed out I'm planning on making a bolt action for it, it turns out it does work, rather well! But it did show up another problem, the blank slides in easily and will drop out if you turn it upside down, but after it's been fired it's hard to get the empty case out, sometimes I can just about pull it out with my fingers, other times I need to lever it out with a screwdriver.

What would be causing this? Is it because the hole isn't smooth enough? I just drilled it, would reaming it fix the problem? I know I'd probably have to start over because the hole will be too big but that's not really a problem, I don't have a reamer either, so I'd have to buy one, but I'm not going to buy it unless I know that's the problem, I'm not a fan of wasting money! If I need a reamer does it have to be a chamber reamer or will a regular chucking reamer work?
out of interest, are you using .22 starting pistol blanks, or something more powerful like .22LR or Ramset blanks?

I think what you are doing is really "gunsmithing" -- even if you are in the UK.

but to answer your question
.22 cartridges use relatively light gauge brass casings that expand into the sides of the chamber to become a very tight fit when fired. To reliably extract the spent cartridge you will need to incorporate a pair of extractors and an ejector into your mechanism. In effect you will be incorporating a .22 action (without the barrel) into your tennis ball launcher. Perhaps the easiest way to do this is to purchase a low cost .22 firearm and modify it, but if you do, you will definitely -- at least here -- be stepping into the realm of a firearms maker or armourer -- which has a whole lot of legal requirements.

Perhaps, you should forget about using .22 blanks and use compressed air as the propellant.

Vernonv
15th Aug 2016, 11:21 AM
Perhaps, you should forget about using .22 blanks and use compressed air as the propellant.... or CO2.

Hornetb
15th Aug 2016, 12:48 PM
If you need to make a chamber reamer, a D-bit reamer is easy enough to make given the 22lr is a straight walled cartridge.

But yes, thew brass is expanding and keying into the rough sides of your "chamber" would be my guess too.

ian
15th Aug 2016, 01:00 PM
But yes, the brass is expanding and keying into the rough sides of your "chamber" would be my guess too.I'm not sure that the casing is keying into the chamber walls per see, more that after firing the casing becomes an exact fit to the chamber

Oldneweng
15th Aug 2016, 01:08 PM
I recently handed in a very old worn Mauser 22LR. It was no longer useful. I believe it may have been used for firing a lot of 22 shorts as it had pitting in the chamber. 22LR cartridges would not extract reliably. A combination of wear issues, but the pitting made the cartridge harder to move.

I researched building a machine to throw tennis balls some years ago. The main design I found, involved an electric motor driving 2 rollers in opposite directions so that a ball dropped down a chute was guided between the rollers, which flicked the ball out. This idea has the benefit that it is an continuous operation and does not require reloading. Depends on your requirements.

My thought at the time was to teach a dog(s) to drop a ball into the machine. For various reasons we don't throw balls for our dogs very much anymore, including the fact that tennis balls in particular can cause very bad teeth wear due to the dirt they pick up. I have have to learn to pick them up with my hands.:D

Dean

China
15th Aug 2016, 05:56 PM
How did you drill the chamber, needs to be reamed with a chamber reamer if the size is not correct it will never work

KBs PensNmore
15th Aug 2016, 06:48 PM
For what you are trying to do, I'd ask the local gunsmith for an old worn out rifle, explain that you only want the bolt action and chamber.
Because you drilled the hole that is where you are having problems. If you look at the drilled hole through a microscope, you'll see a group of valleys and ridges, as a casing expands it will take the form of the chamber that it is fired in. If you are intent on proceeding with it, I'd make a D bit reamer with a slight taper inwards towards the "barrel" end, it only needs to be a couple of thou smaller, as the shell is ejected it only has to move a few thou and it'll come out easily. If you look at a .303 case you'll see that it has a fair amount of taper on it, that is to prevent jamming from dirt mud etc. according to the gunsmith that I spoke to, when I used to do a lot of shooting. I had 3 of them.
Kryn

Rob Turbo
16th Aug 2016, 03:33 AM
out of interest, are you using .22 starting pistol blanks, or something more powerful like .22LR or Ramset blanks?

I'm using "launcher" blanks, they are for dummy launchers for dog training.


To reliably extract the spent cartridge you will need to incorporate a pair of extractors and an ejector into your mechanism. In effect you will be incorporating a .22 action (without the barrel) into your tennis ball launcher. Perhaps the easiest way to do this is to purchase a low cost .22 firearm and modify it, but if you do, you will definitely -- at least here -- be stepping into the realm of a firearms maker or armourer -- which has a whole lot of legal requirements.


For what you are trying to do, I'd ask the local gunsmith for an old worn out rifle, explain that you only want the bolt action and chamber.

I was planning on having an extractor and ejector but don't think it will work reliably because of how tight the empty case can be to remove as it is. It would be easier to modify a firearm, but there's no real way of doing that legally, for some reason in the UK they don't like you having any part of a firearm that's not registered to you, so if I did somehow come across someone willing to sell me bits from a firearm I could end up in quite a bit of trouble!

Also I'm just doing it for the fun of it, making all the parts myself is half of the fun, my mates get to join in afterwards!

I'll have a go at making a reamer with a slight taper and see if that solves the problem.

ian
16th Aug 2016, 09:15 AM
I'm using "launcher" blanks, they are for dummy launchers for dog training.

I was planning on having an extractor and ejector but don't think it will work reliably because of how tight the empty case can be to remove as it is. It would be easier to modify a firearm, but there's no real way of doing that legally, for some reason in the UK they don't like you having any part of a firearm that's not registered to you, so if I did somehow come across someone willing to sell me bits from a firearm I could end up in quite a bit of trouble!

Here, what you are doing counts as building your own UNREGISTERED firearm, which will get you in as much, if not more, trouble than modifying a registered firearm.

Hornetb
16th Aug 2016, 10:21 AM
He's in the UK.

ian
16th Aug 2016, 03:15 PM
I know, that's why I prefaced the comment with "here"


besides, following the "troubles", I suspect building what amounts to a firearm action - chamber, bolt, firing pin, extractor, ejector -- amounts to "manufacture" even in the UK.

KBs PensNmore
16th Aug 2016, 09:45 PM
It's only ILLEGAL, IF he gets caught:D

ian
16th Aug 2016, 10:48 PM
It's only ILLEGAL, IF he gets caught:D
don't you mean, there's only consequences IF he gets caught?

KBs PensNmore
16th Aug 2016, 11:21 PM
That too Ian.

Combustor
17th Aug 2016, 01:36 AM
Another cause of difficult extraction of .22 cases is a burr on the chamber face from the firing pin if the weapon is dry fired and has an excess firing pin travel. Our Club has several pistols that are susceptable to this. Burr removal via chainsaw file leaves slight roughness and is not a good fix, so had to buy in a .22 chamber reamer and now use that to remove any slight burr due to accidental dry firing damage. Just one of the joys of firearm maintenance. Regards,
Combustor.

Rob Turbo
17th Aug 2016, 03:05 AM
I looked into the legality of such a project before I started, the main points are, first of all, that it can't look like a gun, this is a bit of an unusual one, simply painting it bright colours will do, all toy guns/water pistols etc are bright colours so they can't be mistaken for a firearm, of course there's the option of having it not looking like a gun at all, which is what I'm going for, basically it looks like a tube that's fat at one end and thin at the other, I originally wanted a stock and pistol grip but decided against it to make it not look at all like a gun. Second, as mentioned before, it can't be easily converted to fire live ammunition with simple hand tools and without special knowledge, having made the chamber first it's clear that the final product will not be able to fire live ammunition, had I have started with any other part it could look like I was building an illegal firearm and I would probably have a hard time explaining myself.

The dummy launchers that the blanks were designed for can be bought legally without a license, you can also buy an adapter for them that fires tennis balls, I have an acre of private land to use it on, it's not like I'm running around the streets with it, all the neighbors know where to find me and nobody has complained and if anyone had a problem with it I'd stop using it. I hope this clears up any issues regarding the legality of it.

China
17th Aug 2016, 07:38 PM
"all toy guns/water pistols etc are bright colours so they can't be mistaken for a firearm"

God help us!

Oldneweng
18th Aug 2016, 01:37 AM
If we looked into our laws we would probably find similar things.

I recall a mate telling me about an argument he had with a cop about securing his rifle. The cop said he had to have a lock thru the trigger guard. He said that was no good and came up with numerous other ideas. No good. The trigger guard it had to be. He gave up and put a lock thru the trigger guard as well as one clamped around the barrel. I don't recall the specifics about that.

The reason he did not want to use the trigger guard? It was plastic and so flimsy he was worried it would break if the lock put any pressure on it.

South Australian Police have been known to try and trick gun owners. A favourite is to visit during the day and ask another household member to open the cabinet in the absence of the licenced owner. I know someone who had this happen. His wife knew exactly what to do. "I know nothing".

In Victoria, or at least in this area the police ring in advance and can give you 2 weeks notice. I had a visit earlier this year. Yep 2 guns. Tick, tick. See you later. The 2 states have always had a totally different attitude to guns.

Dean

China
18th Aug 2016, 06:08 PM
Depends a lot on the particular officer doing the checking also, from reasonable to completely unreasonable

Beemer10
24th Feb 2017, 01:17 PM
Agreed. Some form of extractor is usually necessary with.22s, just to break the expanded case away from the chamber walls. If you go to a bolt action, that would generally take care of the problem.

Briangoldcoast
26th Feb 2017, 11:01 AM
Would a thin (small diameter) "ramrod" of say silver steel on a file handle be enough to push the case out ? Makes the whole exercise really simple.

Oldneweng
26th Feb 2017, 12:07 PM
Read the first post. The chamber is blind.

Dean

steve.rsa
27th Feb 2017, 09:16 AM
Back to CO2 to eject the case.

Or mill a keyway in the back face of the chamber, hinge the key at top and pull back. Some pics of your set-up would help.